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Tough Customers: Is It Them or Us?

Tough CustomersBy Rich Simon As therapists, many of us practice in two different worlds. In the first, we see polite, well-behaved, articulate clients with solid values. They engage fully in therapy, talk cogently about their problems, listen attentively to our responses, make reasonably good-faith efforts to follow our suggestions, and sooner or later get better. No wonder we genuinely like these people!

Does This Kid Need Medication? with Ron Taffel

Meds: Myths and Realities: NP0035 – Session 3

Do you feel like you could be a more effective therapist with your younger clients? Do you find it hard to determine when interventions--psychological and pharmacological--might be needed? Join Ron Taffel and learn to identify key diagnostic signs that indicate medications could be helpful when dealing with depression, anxiety, AD/HD, and affective disorders. After the session, please let us know what you think. If you ever have any technical questions or issues, please feel free to email support@psychotherapynetworker.org.

You Don’t Have To Choose

Casey Truffo On Doing The Work You Love And Making It Pay

In Consultation

Peer Supervision Groups that Work

By Eleanor Counselman

Three steps that make a difference

Q: I’d like to organize a peer supervision group, but I’ve heard their failure rate is high. What do you recommend? A: Peer supervision groups provide a welcome respite from the isolation of private practice and an informal, nonevaluative setting after years of formal supervision, particularly for young therapists. They offer valuable guidance on difficult cases and tough ethical dilemmas to therapists at any level of experience. And they’re free! However, as you note, many of them fail. In my experience, careful attention to the initial contract and the ongoing group process can make a huge difference in helping them sustain their membership and thrive. Though they’re often called peer supervision groups, it would be more accurate to call them peer consultation groups. Members don’t have direct supervisory responsibility for one another’s cases: they simply offer suggestions, which members can accept or reject. They typically have four to six members who have approximately the same level of professional experience or share a specific area of interest. Members meet on a regular, usually biweekly, basis. Group consultation, with or without a leader, offers advantages over individual consultation. It includes the possibility of multiple perspectives on the same problem and the reduction of clinicians’ shame about confusions and mistakes as they share similar stories about their struggles with difficult cases. Another benefit is peer interaction, which develops one’s professional sense of self. The hall-of-mirrors effect—seeing yourself as others see you—which is so potent in therapy groups, is a major component of the supervision group experience. Nevertheless, despite the many benefits, it’s challenging to start and maintain a consultation group, particularly if it’s a leaderless one. They can fail to thrive or suffer from “task drift,” moving them away from discussing clinical material and into a form of therapy. It can be difficult to integrate new members and maintain clarity about the group’s own process. Presenting cases in supervision in any format poses obvious risks to one’s self-esteem, and group dynamics add additional risks: issues of power, competition, exposure, and shame can lead members to drop out. It’s especially challenging to manage group dynamics in leaderless groups, as it’s usually the leader’s role to remain aware of what’s happening within the group, and without a leader in charge, shame or fear of being judged may silence members. The most successful leaderless groups seem to be those in which the group members find a balance between a focus on cognitive and emotional issues—talking about cases and about the feelings that arise when seeing clients—while consciously managing the functions that a designated leader would serve. These include protecting the group contract, setting and maintaining appropriate norms, and handling gatekeeping matters, such as bringing in new members. A crucial component of maintaining an atmosphere of group safety is regular, dependable member attendance. Without this, a group will never feel like a place to take risks. Members need to be willing to bring up concerns about irregular attendance because, just as in a therapy group, member lateness and absences can indicate issues that need exploring. Chronic irregular attendance can be demoralizing and cause a group to fail. When it comes to group safety and cohesion, Woody Allen was right: 90 percent of supervision group success is about showing up. A significant issue in any supervision group is shame and the reluctance to expose oneself. To make supervision groups feel safer, therapist David Altfeld developed a model of group consultation in which all group members simply share their emotional reactions and associations to a situation being discussed, instead of one person presenting a specific case issue and everyone else giving advice as resident “experts.” This procedure levels the playing field by not allowing members to compete for the best case analysis. It leaves room for highlighting emotional issues, countertransference reactions, and parallel process. Making everyone vulnerable in this manner avoids opportunities for excessive criticism (or its counterpart, excessive niceness) and encourages emotional sharing. Another group consultation model, developed by Irish therapist Bobby Moore, focuses only on minimal case information, such as a patient’s age, length of time in therapy, and perhaps a little demographic information. Then the presenter talks about his or her thoughts, fantasies, feelings, and associations about the patient and the therapy. Group members then share their associations. Following that, the initial presenter is invited to share any further associations. Only at this point does the presenter give the facts of the case and the clinical dilemma. Finally, the group thinks together about what’s been discussed and what it indicates about the case. For those interested in the power of the collective unconscious, this is a fascinating process to experience. To succeed, a consultation group must feel safe and useful to its members. Here are a few simple principles to follow: Clarify the group structure. The group needs to agree on the frequency and length of meetings, which is best accomplished with a predictable schedule. The group needs to agree on its task and focus: is this group for any clinical issue or just for couples, or trauma, or group therapy? How much time will the group spend on “schmoozing,” and will there be one or more than one case presented each time? What will be the presentation format? While most groups use verbal presentation, some groups are now using videoclips—which makes the discussion much livelier. Agree on membership issues. How many members will the group have, and how will new members be integrated? Once a group has formed, I believe that decisions about adding more members should be a group decision. While it may be tempting to accept a request from someone who wants to join the group, a total of six members seems to be the maximum number for each member to have enough opportunities for presentations. Attend to the group process and dynamics. While groups should build in a “schmooze” or “check-in” time, there needs to be an agreed-upon limit to the socializing, so that the group doesn’t become a therapy group or a coffee klatch. Without a leader, the members themselves must monitor the group’s procedures and raise any important issues. Some groups do this ad hoc; others schedule a regular review meeting to evaluate how things are going. Leaderless peer supervision groups can help clinicians at any stage further clinical learning and combat professional isolation. They’re likeliest to succeed when the group members have a clear working agreement, maintain regular attendance, and create an environment in which both emotional and cognitive learning occurs. Eleanor Counselman, Ed.D., is a past president of the Northeastern Society for Group Psychotherapy and an assistant professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. She’s published numerous articles on psychotherapy and has a private practice in Belmont, Massachusetts.

Case Study

Women Who Cheat

By Tammy Nelson

Understanding the message of the affair

Even though our ideas about sex and sexuality have greatly advanced over the last half-century, our culture still holds a double standard about infidelity. While no one is entirely surprised by the behavior of a Bill Clinton, an Elliot Spitzer, or a Tiger Woods—men will be men, after all—we still tend to pathologize women or shame them (or both) for having affairs. In my view, far from being evidence of pathology or marital bankruptcy, a woman’s affair can be a way of expressing a desire for an entirely different self, either separate from the marriage altogether or still in it. An affair can be what I call “a can opener” for women unable to articulate for themselves why they’re unhappy in their marriages, much less empower themselves to leave or begin an honest conversation with their husbands about what they feel is wrong. In my practice, I’ve heard many women say, “I didn’t even know what I wanted until the affair was over and I realized that I really wanted to end my marriage,” or “I had no idea that I used the affair as a way to wake up our relationship.” Many infidelity treatment approaches today are based on the idea that the unfaithful spouse is a perpetrator, someone who wronged the other person. While the pain caused by infidelity can’t and shouldn’t be denied, it generally isn’t understood well enough that many women cheat because they struggle with their self-identity in their lives and lack of empowerment in their marriages. To some extent, the affair makes up for a felt lack of an adult self. Sometimes, understanding an affair as an unconscious bid for self-empowerment, relief from bad sex, or a response to a lack of choices or personal freedom is an important first step toward a fuller, more mature selfhood. Searching for the Bartered Self Sarah came to therapy with her husband, Rob, for couples therapy after he caught her cheating. Married for 10 years, he felt hurt, angry, and hopeless about the marriage. He sat across from Sarah on the couch, with his head in his hands. “I have no idea how we’re going to get past this. Sarah says she wants to work this out, but I don’t know if we can put this marriage together again after what she’s done.” Rob had read emails between Sarah and her boyfriend that explained in detail how much they were enjoying virtual sex—watching each other masturbating over a webcam—which had both shocked and devastated him. He’d thought their sex life was good, but admitted that having kids had gotten in the way of their relationship. He thought they still loved each other, and Sarah agreed. They were both unclear why the affair had happened, but said they wanted to recover their marriage, if possible. At the end of their first joint session, Sarah asked whether she could see me individually. Rob consented, so I asked if they’d be OK with an open secrets policy: what’s said in the individual session stays in the session. They agreed that whatever Sarah said could be kept private, though she could share with Rob what she wished to from our individual sessions. In our first individual session, Sarah asked if therapy could be a place where she could talk honestly about the affair. This led to a discussion of the difference between privacy and secrecy, both in her marriage and in her sessions with me. Keeping secrets in her marriage had given Sarah a sense of space—a secret place where she could grow her sexuality, dream her dreams, and keep a part of her that no one else had control over. Our first conversation revolved around how the space she’d created could be shifted from secret to private, and how she could keep a differentiated, individuated boundary around herself in her relationship. This could give her a healthy degree of separation from her husband without having to lie or be deceptive to stake out her space. I then explained to Sarah that, in my view, infidelity recovery has three phases: crisis, insight, and vision. The crisis stage occurs right after disclosure or discovery, when couples are in acute distress and their lives are in chaos. At this point, the focus of therapy isn’t on whether or not they should stay together or if there’s a future for them, but on establishing safety, addressing painful feelings, and normalizing trauma symptoms. In phase two, the insight phase, we talk about what vulnerabilities might have led to the extramarital affair. Becoming observers of the affair, we begin to tell the story of what happened. Repeating endless details of the sexual indiscretion doesn’t help, but taking a deeper look at what the unfaithful partner longed for and couldn’t find in the marriage—and so looked for outside of it—as well as finding empathy for the other, who was in the dark, can elicit a shift in how both partners see the affair and what it meant in their relationship. Phase three is the vision phase, which includes seeking a deeper understanding of the meaning of the affair and moves forward the experience and resulting lessons into a new concept of marriage and, perhaps, a new future. In this phase, partners can decide to move on separately or stay together. This is where the erotic connection will be renewed (or created) and desire can be revived. In this phase, the meaning of monogamy changes from a moralistic, blanket prohibition on outside sex to a search for deeper intimacy inside the marriage. A vision of the relationship going forward includes negotiating a new commitment. Establishing Safety During early sessions in the crisis phase of treatment, Sarah’s view of the world was shifting, and she didn’t know what she wanted. She wavered about whether she wanted to stay with Rob, wondering whether she should move on and seek genuine emotional independence alone or stay and try to be both fully herself and fully married to Rob. She wasn’t sure she could trust me to understand her and didn’t trust her husband, either, even though she herself had acted in a way that wasn’t trustworthy. Gradually, Sarah revealed that she’d felt that she had no space of her own in the marriage, literally or figuratively. Her husband had a home office, but she had no comparable space for herself. Her dependence on Rob was nearly total: he balanced the checkbook, paid the bills, earned the money, and told her when she could make ATM withdrawals. He even counted the cash in her wallet and decided how much she should spend at the hair salon. She’d never been encouraged or allowed to feel empowered and independent. As a result, she’d started rebelling against her husband like an adolescent against a too-strict father, sneaking out at night or during the day when he was at work and having clandestine sexual encounters. Sarah’s affair consisted primarily of quick liaisons in the back of her car. Her boyfriend met sexual needs not being fulfilled at home. Although the sex was quick, furtive, and secret, he gave her orgasms and oral sex and was willing to experiment in ways she found exciting. But while buoyed by the thrill and energy of this new relationship and her long-buried ability to feel pleasure—even wondering if she might be falling in love—she also felt guilty. Frightened by the growing intimacy with her lover when they were together, she began meeting him online, masturbating with him through a webcam. After Rob discovered the affair, he’d demanded Sarah’s email and voice mail passwords, which she gave him. Although this made her feel exposed, vulnerable, and humiliated, she thought her husband deserved the transparency—as the “innocent” party—and that she should be punished. All these thoughts conformed with many of society’s constructs about women who have affairs, but they reinforced her long-brewing resentment that her marriage wasn’t an equal partnership: she was the “bad child”; her husband, the aggrieved parent. At this point, I reframed the affair for Sarah in a way quite different from her own perspective (and that of many therapists). I asked whether it was possible that the infidelity was less a transgression than a move toward self-respect and self-empowerment. Could she have been seeking autonomy and individuation, as well as a more mature state of sexual development? Was she trying to find her voice, maintain a stronger sense of herself, create a personal boundary that no one could cross, and remain in her marriage? Yes, she’d betrayed her husband; this was beyond doubt, I added. And this method for finding herself was clearly not working if she wanted the marriage to survive. But perhaps she’d paradoxically tried to sabotage the marriage as a desperate attempt to develop more emotional maturity and become a more independent and grown-up wife. As we spoke, Sarah realized that, while her intentions in having the affair hadn’t been conscious, she did want to grow into a fuller woman and mature sexual adult. She admitted she thought she could bring that woman back into the marriage and into the relationship. This made one point crystal clear: she could no longer be satisfied with the marriage as it was. Gaining Awareness Having gotten a clearer portrait of Sarah’s marriage, we moved on to the insight phase of treatment. What did the affair mean about her? What did it mean about Rob? And what did it mean about their marriage? As we explored these questions, Sarah discovered quickly that the affair had far more to do with her marriage than with her husband, whom she said she loved and with whom she wanted to stay—but only if it could become a more equal partnership. When I asked what the affair told her about Rob, she said, “I felt that he wanted me to fill a certain kind of role; it wasn’t just about replaying my mother’s position. Rob liked being in charge, liked bossing me around and being a kind of father. I know why, too. He recently lost his job, and the only place he felt any power or control was at home. He was mad that they’d fired him and took it out on me. In a way, he’s always done that: when people reject him, he gets angry and controlling. But with us, the more he tried to control me, the more I wanted independence from him.” We worked in sessions to identify some key areas where she could feel more autonomy and still be in relationship with Rob. She started small, choosing their television shows, making decisions on where to go to dinner, instead of saying, “I don’t care where we go. Where do you want to go?” When Rob asked her to have sex, she told him she wasn’t ready yet, but would let him know when she was. Although Rob felt he had little or no control in these situations, he did begin to appreciate signs of the new, more adult Sarah, someone equal to him, with whom he could have a conversation and negotiate choices. He realized it was a relief that he didn’t have to do it all himself, and he actually felt less lonely in the marriage. When I asked Sarah what the affair meant about her marriage, she said, “In the affair, I felt stronger, more mature, sexier, calmer, more charming, and more alive.” We talked about whether she could integrate her sexier, more mature self into the marriage or whether the relationship was fundamentally flawed. To her, being in her marriage meant giving up a sense of personal power, while having an affair gave her a sense of independence, choice, and more control. She didn’t know how to have a grown-up relationship with her husband that encompassed safety and desire. Reenvisioning a Marriage Treatment in the third phase included helping Sarah get in touch with her fantasies and reconnect with pleasure—one of her greatest challenges in therapy. She felt guilty when she thought about her own pleasure, and had compartmentalized her needs into the affair, as something separate, wrong, and forbidden. Her fantasies and desires were something she felt shame about sharing with her husband. Bringing that sexual part of her into the marriage was the beginning of erotic recovery for her and for her marriage, but she still had to learn to connect with her desires and to communicate them to Rob. I asked her to write down some of her sexual fantasies and share what she thought the desire or longing underneath them was. For instance, if the fantasy was to have someone grab her hair and kiss her, was this spurred by a longing to be held, to be out of control, to know that she was wanted and desired, or all of the above? The goal was to normalize her sexual needs: her affair had been a breach of monogamy, not a sexual pathology. “If you could have anything you wanted, what would you ideally expect from your sex life with your husband?” Sarah answered shyly, “That he’d pursue me and we’d try new things in bed.” When I asked her if she knew what the longing underneath might be, she said, “My real longing underneath is to be totally special to him.” Sarah went on to work on a vision of a more intimate and adult sexuality. This included asking Rob to behave in ways that made her feel special and trying to make him feel special as well. By this point, she was committed to creating a mutual vision of a new monogamy with her husband, and I suggested they return for couples therapy and focus together on their erotic recovery. Several months later, Rob and Sarah are still working on an agreement for a new, monogamous marriage together. Sarah is committed to sharing her real thoughts and feelings with Rob. In this way, her adult self and her adult needs become a priority that can be talked about and negotiated in the relationship. She feels they’re now given as much importance as Rob’s needs. Rob’s commitment to Sarah is that he tries harder to share his feelings and work on creating a more emotionally intimate relationship. They both try to be conscious of the distant and disconnected roles learned in their childhoods, and focus instead on the emotional intimacy they really want from the relationship. Their new monogamy includes a focus on their erotic recovery. The affair created an erotic injury to their relationship, and Rob and Sarah continue to work on this as a goal of healing. They’ve made a commitment to sharing their fantasies and talking about what’s working in their love life. When they feel distant or dissatisfied, they want to learn to talk about it and turn toward each other instead of shutting down or turning to someone else outside the marriage. Sarah now understands that her journey to self-empowerment and freedom can happen at the same time that she’s a wife and partner. Her adult choices include staying in a mature, monogamous relationship, while creating space for working on her own self-identity. Her worth in the relationship continues to be a focus of our couples therapy. Her cheating makes sense to her now in the context of her life issues, but she has a new empathy for Rob and how it affected him. As therapists, it’s important to discern what our goal is for the women we treat in infidelity therapy. Are we helping them end an affair or end their marriage? Is it our job to remind them of their vows or simply to help them heal? By viewing women’s infidelity as a possible search for a new way of being, we can help them reenvision a fully committed relationship with greater empowerment and equality. CASE COMMENTARY By David Treadway While I admire the sensitive work Tammy Nelson did in rejuvenating Sarah and Rob’s marriage, both emotionally and erotically, I believe that zooming in too quickly to examine the root causes of an infidelity without addressing the emotional impact of the betrayal on both parties usually leads to incomplete healing. Although I say to couples that each partner is 50 percent responsible for what’s not working in a marriage, I always add that choosing to have a secret affair is 100 percent the responsibility of the unfaithful spouse. Most of the time, couples need a way of healing the fundamental breach of trust before being able to fully repair the relationship. In working with couples following a secret affair, I use a four-step model based on the treatment approach of clinical psychologist Janis Abrahms Spring: Step 1: The betrayed partners have as much time as needed to share their hurt, anger, and sense of devastation while unfaithful partners listen as nondefensively as possible without explaining or rationalizing their behavior. The therapist helps the partner who had the outside relationship to be compassionate and caring about the impact of the affair. Needless to say, this may take more than a single session. Step 2: The unfaithful partners are then taught to write a letter in which they take full responsibility for having done harm, indicating what they’ll do to ensure it won’t happen again and what concrete steps they’ll take to make amends. In addition to agreeing never again to see the other party in the affair, other ways to make amends might include giving up drinking for a year or getting rid of the boat where the affair took place. Step 3: The letter of amends is read in session, and the concrete actions that constitute an attempt at atonement are agreed upon by both partners. Step 4: Only at this point is the challenge of learning how to forgive discussed, and only if betrayed partners are ready to begin to work on it. If so, they’re coached on how to write a forgiveness letter that involves accepting the attempts at atonement and expressing a willingness to let go of a sense of injury. This all takes place with the understanding that forgiveness can’t be legislated; it has to grow over time. It’s my experience that patiently and thoroughly working through this difficult process without shaming and blaming is what allows a couple to move on to achieving a level of intimacy and trust that they typically never had before. I remember a man named Paul who’d gone on to transform his relationship with his wife after her affair and referred to their new sense of connection as his “second marriage.” In one of our last sessions, he put his arm around his wife, smiled at me conspiratorially, and said, “You know what I like best? Here I have this extraordinary woman and a brand new ‘second marriage,’ and the lawyers didn’t get a dime!” AUTHOR'S RESPONSE I agree with David Treadway’s observation that working with couples after an infidelity takes lots of finesse and that, of course, the feelings of the person who’s been deceived and betrayed need to taken into account and addressed. Like Treadway, I think Janis Spring’s “secrets policy” can be invaluable, offering helpful clinical guidelines for individual work when necessary. Since this case study was told from Sarah’s point of view, it doesn’t delve into Rob’s feelings, nor do we get to see much of the couples work. Instead, the focus is on the special issues of identity and empowerment for women who have affairs. If I’d told the fuller story of the therapy with this couple, I’d have devoted more attention to the third phase of treatment—the attempt to help them develop a new vision of their marriage, which I call the “new monogamy.” However, the most important message I hope readers take away from this case is that even after the wrenching pain of an affair, therapists still have an opportunity to help troubled couples create a new relationship with better communication, fuller intimacy, and realistic hope for a better future together. Tammy Nelson, Ph.D., M.S., a board-certified sexologist, licensed professional counselor, certified sex therapist, and Imago therapist, is the founder and executive director of the Center for Healing. She’s the author of The New Monogamy; Getting the Sex You Want; and What’s Eating You? David Treadway, Ph.D., is director of the Treadway Training Institute. He’s the author of Home Before Dark: First Year with Cancer and Intimacy, Change, and Other Therapeutic Mysteries: Stories of Clinicians and Clients.
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Couples Therapy, Session 2, Terry Real: Comment Board

 

terry_real_p003Welcome to Session 2 of Couples Therapy: Today and Tomorrow. During this session with Terry Real, you’ll get the opportunity to hear about how to help today’s couples develop the skills they need to achieve a high level of connection and emotional intimacy.

Real will discuss how to deal with the differences between what men and women contribute to relationships, how to identify the techniques that disrupt relationships, and how to present your observations as a therapist in an honest way.

As always, we invite you to participate in this Comment Board to share relevant experiences with couples therapy, comment on what was most interesting to you, and raise any questions you may have. What was most important to you about what you learned today?

Please include your name and hometown along with your comment. Thank you again for your participation and your comments.


02.16.2011   Posted In: P003 Couples Therapy: Today and Tomorrow   By Rich Simon
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Comments
     

    • 0 avatar liz colten 02.17.2011 07:10
      how does this approach get modified when the couple is ordered to couples counseling because of abusive parenting, they fit the latent/blatant model but they believe their relationship is 'perfect'....liz colten, colorado springs
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 09:01
        tough one, liz
        id bet a couple referred for abusive parenting who think their relationship is perfect is either both blatant or the latent is so codependent he or she is frightened to speak the truth
        Reply
    • 0 avatar Carlton Brown 02.17.2011 07:14
      Looking at liz colten's comment, Alan Jenkins comes to mind, Invitations to Responsibility, perhaps joining with the couple around what is restraining them from seeing that their relationship is hurting their children, perhaps the couple is blatant and the kids are latent in this case.

      Anyway I loved Terry's presentation: funny, confirming, in a lot of ways modeled the "functional adult". I've been doing couples therapy for years and have struggled with the shame I feel whenever I supported the woman "against" the man. I have gradually learned a more nuanced approach to address the grandiosity and found in Terry's work the "royal road" which I have been laboring to find as I hack my way through the undergrowth. Thanks. Carlton Brown, Hamilton Ontario
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.18.2011 05:59
        Thanks Carlton! No more shame! I love giving clinicians support for doing what their hearts moved them to do all along.
        Reply
    • 0 avatar Dorothy Winrow 02.17.2011 07:15
      I think I will easily keep in mind the idea of loving truth telling and the idea of leverage v.s. alliance.
      Reply
    • 0 avatar Loren Gelberg-Goff 02.17.2011 07:16
      Very good program... focused, clear and direct. Instead of using the focus of 1st and 2nd consciousness, I have told couples I work with that only one person can have a tantrum at a time... the first person to "act out" has dibs... from there it's the other partner who has to be the adult. People seem to relate to the idea of a "tantrum"... I do love doing couple's counseling and appreciate your insights and clarity to expand, deepen and reinforce my skills, knowledge and learning. Thank You. Loren Gelberg-Goff, River Edge
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.18.2011 06:05
        Yes Lauren - I say, everyone gets to be childish but you have to take turns!
        Reply
    • 0 avatar Charlie Love 02.17.2011 07:25
      Great information presented in logical, easy to follow manner. It is important to have skills to deal with blatant/ abusive types and Terry has clearly created a tactics to get their attention and investment in change. I liked his upfront, honest approach blending the heart and truth. Thanks, Terry
      Charlie Love, Austin, Tx.
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 08:59
        thanks for your kind words, charlie
        the conjunction of truth and love is what intimacy is - i find most therapy has one or the other but not both at the same time
        Reply
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    • Not available avatar 02.17.2011 07:43
      I enjoyed the presentation. The concept of shame and grandiosity are novel ways of looking at what impedes quality relatedness between the couple. I will keep this in mind when I'm working with my couples. I like the techniques of holding up pictures of the children and speaking to the anger. Florence Calhoun, Los Angeles,CA.
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 08:56
        thanks florence
        you cannot be intimate from either the one up or one down positions
        you must have healthy self-esteem to truly love another
        Reply
    • 0 avatar Dale Pavich 02.17.2011 08:23
      Thank you, Terry and Rich, for this very accessible and lucid approach to working with conflict-impacted couples. I wondered if you have any thoughts on working with hispanic men who characteristically value their "machismo" as part of their own cultural heritage and identity; particularly when it becomes confused or contaminated with grandiosity that manifests in abusive behavior and what you've termed "taking liberties"? Do you have a special approach for educating these types client families that honors such cultural norms without alligning with grandiosity and thus negatively impacting the relational rapport in the family system?? Any other resource materials on using RLT with non-anglo populations would also be appreciated. Thank you very much, Terry, for your dedicated and insightful work in this important aspect of family therapy!

      Dale Pavich, LCSW
      Santa Barbara, Ca
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.18.2011 06:08
        I try focusing on aspects of machismo and of traditional masculitbity in general that call out the better parts of the guy - like being a good team player, being responsible, a good leader - the more leverage you have the more willingness ther will
        be to change
        Reply
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    • Not available avatar 02.18.2011 08:15
      Having read the book it was great to hear Terry review the highlites. I especially like the example of the family of orgin idea the so many people are not behaving as they wanted. I find that since the better behavior represents a certin degree of mountain climing most would like to be acknowledged for that effort that is likely unknown to the mate. The mate just thinks that is the way to go such as not yell etc, but it can be a real effort to act differently. When you appreciate their efforts to be their better self it really creates a bound in therapy I believe. Thank you for this and more
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 08:53
        thanks - good comment
        in RLT we'd call this - cherishing your partner's progress
        i write about it in The New Rules of Marriage
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.18.2011 09:42
      When the couple is not challenged by an affair or addiction, no "bad guy" is evident, just more ordinary issues of boredom, not communicating well, or general unhappiness in marriage, how do you determine the blatent and the latent?
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 08:51
        good question
        you don't always get a latent and blatant, sometimes you have two blatants, sometimes this particular lens is less applicable than other RLT lenses - remember there are six others
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.18.2011 11:53
      Great webinar, at first the direct approach felt unauthentic for me, my style but it has grown on me and I appreciate the adaptive child vs. functional adult model. Thanks,
      Elizabeth Baratta LMHC Somerville, MA
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 08:47
        thanks elizabeth
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.18.2011 14:25
      Reply
    • 0 avatar Donna Vogeler-Boutin 02.18.2011 17:32
      Enjoyed this webinar very much. The rules are changing in couples therapy as women become more empowered in our culture. Nice to see the change. It appears to be a powerful modality determining the latent and the blatant. I did have difficulty understanding Terry. Maybe the mike was too close. Also the grid slide was really difficult to read. I will download the slides - I hope it won't be as difficult to read when I make a copy. Thanks
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 08:47
        as women change therapy must change as well - now let's see the men change too!
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 03:29
      I enjoyed the webinar. I thought Terry's focus on confronting the aggrandizing position directly, yet with humility, was crucial to repairing damaged ways of functioning.
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 08:44
        thank you - agreed.
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 03:36
      I appreciated being given permission, and a specific way to confront grandiose partners in the first session. I have felt incompetent in dealing with this very common phenomena, and have therefore limited the couples work I do. Its actually a way to empower myself as a female therapist. I plan to learn more about it. Thanks. Christina Veselak, Aurora, CO
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 08:43
        cristina
        this is music to my ears - hearing you, as a female therapist, feeling empowered by this work. brava! its hard to impossible to work with grandiosity without a map. i will be in denver in a few weeks doing live work if you can swing it - love to see you there.
        Reply
    • 0 avatar Lynn Pearlmutter 02.19.2011 04:07
      The work with grandiosity was very helpful. I agree that we see this partner very often. I am having a bit more trouble putting my arms around the other partner as usually "shamed". Calling it "pained" would work better for me. I see great linkages with your work with the grandiose partner and some of the concepts of motivational interviewing. Lynn Pearlmutter, New Orleans
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 08:39
        thanks lynn
        i don't know enough about motivational interviewing to say anything intelligent other than that others have told me the same.
        concerning the latent - i do not see him/her as in a shame state, necessarily. the latent can be healthy and just putting up with wildly unhealthy behaviors. so shamed sometimes, pained always
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 06:25
      Thanks, Terry. I was introduced to your work by one of my college friends of years ago. I found that it systematized what I have been doing and trying to do in my own practice. I find it integrative with a number of approaches though its use of perhaps a stereotypical masculine valence in the interest of relationship I find brings a more balanced and realistic approach to couples experience. Mark Napack, North Bethesda, MD
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 08:36
        thanks mark -
        i love hearing that my work helps people do what they've been (often rather secretively) doing already!
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 06:45
      Interesting model, treats both genders on a more equal footing than most traditional couples therapies, but don't see all couples fitting neatly into different quadrants on the grid. Some appear to shift back and forth along the spectrum of boundaries and self-esteem depending on factors outside the relationship. Really liked the use of 2nd consciousness as a strategy for helping couples to overcome obstacles to intimacy.

      Richard, NY
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 08:34
        thanks richard -
        concerning the grid, i tell people not to be too particular about it - pick the most predominant stance in this relationship right now - everyone does everything but most will have a predominant position
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 07:44
      Thanks Terry, I liked the blatant-latent concept. I agree you need to get the buy in from the grandiose partner. Thanks for making that explicit. It was hard to hear Terry at times, it was scratchy. Rich thanks for these webinars they are a gift. Renee, Minnetonka, MN
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 08:32
        thanks renee - buy in from the blatant comes after and is largely determined by how much leverage you have (which comes usually from the latent) first, leverage, then joining through the truth.
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 07:46
      Thank you for the very interesting presentation.
      Some of what was presented dovetails very nicely with the Internal Family Systems parts work that I use, which teachs mindfulnness and identifies many parts that are operative for both partners within a relationship, and which helps parts transform into more helpful roles in the relationship along with the "functional part".
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 08:29
        i totally agree. both models teach us to hold in observation with compassion difficult parts of ourselves. i hope to be co-presenting with richard schwartz later this year in boston - we're each going to interview one couple using our two different methods - should be powerful!
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 10:36
      I missed the 4 Steps that Terry Real mentioned right after the 5 Winning Strategies toward the end o fthe webinar. I found the relationship Grid very interesting and wish we had more tim eto hear how it worked. I found Terry's voice not as clear as Rich's. excellent pressentation. I love working w/ couples and have found this most helpful. Thank you! Jackie Sitte-Stoughton,MA
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.20.2011 15:18
        Thanks Jackie.
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.19.2011 13:43
      Great presentation. Thank you Terry for keeping it Real (ha) and giving me permission to confront the grandiose partner. As a female therapist I also realize it is appropriate modeling for the latent partner. Good stuff.
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.20.2011 15:17
        Thanks!
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.20.2011 02:33
      I enjoyed the presentation very much, but have a question.
      I supervise therapy interns who intern in a domestic violence unit in Jerusalem, Israel. The unit's approach is that when there is concern that serious abuse is going on in a couple, the wife (since it's usually the wife that's abused, though not always) will feel unsafe to fully share with the therapist what is happening in the marriage, and we therefore, in such circumstances, work with each member of the coupleindividually for a while, until it is felt that the husband will not threaten the wife's safety, and the woman is more empowered to speak the truth in front of her husband. Any thoughts on whether to and how to apply your approach to couples where there is serious abuse going on?
      Gloria Mosenkis, MSW, SEP, Beit Shemesh, Israel
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.20.2011 15:03
        I agree w your approach completely
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.20.2011 03:48
      Thanks for a great presentation. How would you deal with a wife who's unhappy with her husband's abuse, but won't consider leaving the marriage, for financial reasons or for the children's well-being?

      Steven Guggenheim PhD, New Rochelle, NY
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.20.2011 15:05
        Look for less drastic measures - no cooking, no sex, no socializing, no shared bedroom. There's a whole spectrum of negative consequences
        Reply
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    • 0 avatar Linda Marshall 02.20.2011 07:02
      I'm a female Imago trained therapist and have taken several teleclasses and a workshop with Terry over the years, and so he has informed my work. I am currently working with a couple where I needed to confront grandiose behavior in the first session. I was gentle in that session, and saw a need to be more direct and firm in the second session. It made all the difference and a female can do this with a high-powered male. After Thursday's class, I used the pictures of their children tool that Terry taught us for both of them. They loved it, joined together to post pictures of their children around the house, and give each other signals if they inadvertantly lapse and aren't aware of it. Thanks, Terry. It is heartwarming to witness the progress they are making. Linda Marshall/Dayton, OH
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.20.2011 15:08
        Thanks Linda - music to my ears!!!!
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.20.2011 09:32
      Excellent presentation! Very excited to learn about your work with couples as it will further inform the work I do with perpetrators of domestic violence. I will admit to (perhaps it's my first consciousness at work) feeling horrified about the potential ramifications to a partner who has been abused issuing an ultimatum to her abusive partner; nonetheless, I am excited about how I can use what I've learned today to help me work even more effectively with my clients. Thank you!
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.20.2011 15:11
        I don't do couples therapy with an actively abusive partner - don't use these techniques on a dv case, please.
        Reply
        • 0 avatar Kathy Miller 02.24.2011 07:53
          Understood. I was referring to what I learned about your approach as being helpful with the work that I do with perpretrators. Thanks again.
          Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.20.2011 10:49
      I am slow as I had clients afterward and been busy. I once again liked the presentation. The confronting and staying with the latent has been a questionable area for me and you answered questions I needed answered. The information will be used and shared in my non-profit mental health center. Thanks you Terry. I am very glad I am participating. Most of the time I have good reception in Montana. Occasionally sound is low. I did get on after calling support with the fact the time was wrong. I appreciate the support team. Susan
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.20.2011 15:13
        Thanks Susan.
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.20.2011 10:58
      Great webinar - has sown some new seeds in my mind - as an executive coach I get many grandiose people who are in some form of 'trouble'. Your webinar has led me to question my adherence to goal congruence and rapport and my fear of using leverage of feedback/ brief from HR dept that places the grandiose coachee in some form of trouble. Matt Johannesburg
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.20.2011 15:15
        Yes, I have done corporate work using this model and look forward to doing more - it's a great way to look at the workplace.
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.20.2011 18:04
      As a beginning couples therapist I find myself reflecting on what my own beliefs are about the viability of marriage and intimate partnerships. I know this is necessary in order for me to be grounded in my work. I am really just sorting out what couples therapy is; I can see from the two presentations so far that it is partly about helping people to talk to each other. Terry, I like your comment on this post that "You cannot be intimate from the one-up or one-down position. You must have healthy self-esteem to truly love another". Since self-esteem issues can be very deep-rooted in early life experiences, I'm wondering about how it fits in RLT for partners to take time for individual psychotherapy to do their own work. I enjoyed the content of this presentation, and will pursue further information about the other RLT lenses.
      Laurie Kelly, MSW RCSW
      Whistler, British Columbia
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.21.2011 04:04
        Thanks Laurie
        In RLT we do deep individual character transforming work (fam of origin & trauma work) in the context of the couples therapy. But how we do that is too much to discuss at this juncture, unfortunately. I have written an article that speaks to that a bit - an article on "relational mindfulness" that should be in the networker this fall.
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.20.2011 20:08
      Terry, thank you for speaking the truth about gender inequality in a family therapy context - whew! I've found it affirming. I also am inspired to see that you have answered all the comments on this board. That takes a lot of love and commitment. It intrigued me when you wrote: i hope to be co-presenting with richard schwartz later this year in boston. Please let me know if i can purchase a copy of these interviews. I teach family therapy in Auckland, New Zealand and would appreciate using it as a resource. Cheers, Marta Fisch, Waiheke Island, NZ.
      martafisch.com
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.21.2011 04:08
        Marta - ah, you're in david Epstein land, very nice.
        Dick & I are tentatively scheduled for late fall/early dec next year in Boston but the conference may be simulcast via web - so please stay tuned into my website for details as this develops
        Reply
        • Not available avatar 02.21.2011 15:59
          Would be great to be a part of this conference. Will stay tuned to your website! SWLM, Roswell, GA
          Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.21.2011 04:46
      Thanks for a great session. Terry, I love the grid and have couples and individual clients I will use this with immediately. Rich, thank you for highlighting the idea that most of our individual clients live in the bottom quadrants. Terry thanks for giving us language and tools to help those in the upper quadrants behave differently.

      Bill Doherty gave a very helpful answer to my question about alcohol abuse and Terry answered a lingering question I had about alienating an individual when I tried to set a limit within a couples session, even though deep down my intention was from a caring place, in the moment I was grandiose. Great ideas!
      Terry I was one of your Smith Family Therapy students in 1988 nice to see you present! Pat Jorgenson, Kalamazoo, Michigan
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.21.2011 12:54
        Pat
        Grandiose maybe, but I'll bet you didn't have sufficient leverage
        I say - on't be more ambitious for your clients than they are.
        I wonder if you got out ahead of a latent client. Generally I like to come in under a latent who is setting his or her own limits, rather than taking on the blatant myself.
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.21.2011 08:06
      I really found presentation very practical, epsecially when Terry reviewed the 5 Losing vs the 5 Winning Strategies. I too can see the tie-in with Richard Schwartz's Internal Family Systems, and the practice of Mindfulness. I incorporate a DBT strategy called Moment to Pause -- which is quite simple and applicable. Risa Marlen, Teaneck, NJ
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.21.2011 12:49
        Got it - yes, pausing is the portal to 2nd consciousness
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.21.2011 08:51
      Finally navigated to the comment section! I just listened the Rich Simon/Terry's Real presentation. Much thanks to Rich/Psychotherapy Networker for providing opportunities in continuing education...with or without cost! Having worked in a Federal Prison with inmates, w/'grandiose' individuals in individual and couples therapy, I found Terry's approach 'right on'! I immediately ordered the book, 'The New Rules of Marriage' following the seminar. I learned a lot and much of what was presented supported my approach which isn't all that 'touchy-feely'! Usually I come from a state of compassion and "truth" as Terry define's it... This is not congruent with the approach of many therapists w/whom I work. Really appreciated the 'golden rule' -- "What do you need from me to help you give me what I want", the four quadrant approach (great way to assist both clients and myself in understanding the dynamics of the couple; "I hate how you're treating me-what can I make you for lunch" (a dynamic I frequently witness); the importance of the therapist not being "one-up" or "one down"; first and second consciousness (which reminds me of IFS' who's (what part/aspect) occupying the 'Seat of Consciousness' -- not to forget sometimes there's a blend; and finally the list of "losing" and "winning" strategies. Again, thanks for the helpful input! One quetion, what about those grandiose individuals who use withholding as opposed to acting out as a defense...would like to hear more about this stance! Susan LW Miller MS LPC LMFT NCC; Roswell, GA, USA

      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.21.2011 12:47
        Thanks Susan!
        You're describing someone in the 1-up walled off quadrant - the energy here is MEAN
        we lovingly separate the decent person underneath from these obnoxious beliefs & behaviors
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.21.2011 10:32
      Kathy Fields, LPC in Atlanta, GA
      Loved the presentation. So useful to hear a summary of the book. Would like to hear your thoughts on working with a couple when one has some borderline tendencies. Is it possible to get the handouts that were shown during the presentation?

      Many thanks for such a practical and useful talk.
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.21.2011 12:40
        I'm less interested in diagnosis than I am in motivation.
        I've had "borderlines" do great and run of the mill neurotics who had attitudes do not much.
        Borderlines will tend to be in the upper left quadrant - 1-up and boundaries. They need help with boundaries and staying moderate - all doable (if there's leverage)
        Reply
    • 0 avatar Carol D'Andrea 02.21.2011 13:44
      I love that I don't have to see each person as equally responsible, the ideas of latent and blatant, empowering the latent person, teaching mindful responses... This helped me put a framework on a lot of what I've been trying to do with couples, but gives me a much more structured approach. Excellent! Carol, Queens, NY
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.22.2011 16:13
        Love hearing I'm helping therapists do what they were doing anyway.
        I'll be starting an RLI supervision group in NY btw.
        Thanks for your kind words
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.21.2011 18:38
      I just listened to the web broadcast and it was really terrific ,coherent and well thought out. What do you do if after several sessions the Latent is not willing to put their foot down and to follow through with serious negative consequences for no change? Where do you go from there? Teri from San Jose Ca
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.22.2011 16:15
        Thanks Teri
        I'd meet w the latent a few times alone, see if he or she can be nudged.
        Reply
    • 0 avatar Kathleen Waegner 02.22.2011 10:36
      I appreciated this presentation very much. The tables and diagrams are very helpful. I can see the value in engaging the couple in identifying where they would place themselves on the relationship grid and in determining what their losing strategies are. The relational mindfulness of this approach blends well with the Contemplative Therapy of my practice. Thank you for these tools.

      Kathleen Santa Rosa, CA
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.22.2011 16:16
        Thanks Kathleen
        Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.22.2011 15:11
      I especially appreciated the labelling of "Grandiosity" -- someone I know who is a "pompous ass" (still boasts of punching the high school principal decades later) came to mind. I think we still have a lot of work to bring people up from shame, since I've seen too many people in the counselling field themselves coming from shame. I wonder if there is any way to bring Grandiosity more to light, in general, so that it is no longer as easy to ignore signs of one's own grandiosity. I would like the slide of the Grandiosity/Shame and Walled off/Boundaryless chart if possible. Thanks. Lorill - White Rock, British Columbia.
      Reply
      • Not available avatar 02.22.2011 16:22
        Thanks for your thoughts Lorill.
        Chart can be found in The New Rules of Marriage
        Reply
    • 0 avatar Ruth Bergen Braun 02.23.2011 03:27
      I'm currently working with a couple who have been married over 50 years. He is definately the blatant and certainly during their marriage fits the description of grandiosity. He is, however, filled with remorse and regret over what he did to his family and particularly his wife who he still loves very much. She, on the other hand, is full to the brim of pain. In spite of his remorse, grandiosity is his default and he continues to hurt her. How do I address this while still holding him in his regret and remorse? (I've only been seeing couples for a year so am open to any and all suggestions.)
      Reply
    • Not available avatar 02.23.2011 07:59
      I appreciate his feelings &, evidently, he's still hurting her - he needs to hook
      remorse w resolve and stop behaving badly.
      Reply
    • 0 avatar Nick Child 03.07.2011 01:52
      Catching up late with my webinars here in Scotland, as I am with my belated self-arranged couple counselling training to add to my self-arranged family therapy training. It takes some effort to get out of the pull of one's own world and thinking and training and influences. These webinars are simultaneously like another big planet with the gravitational attraction to make that job easy, as well as another world in terms of how I've found things in the UK - as I said before, the distance and ignorance between what should be two very married fields of family and couple therapy.

      The bold energetic determined open and intelligent development of "schools" of thought and practice in the US is a great inspiration and model for our more tentative and welfare state based ways in the UK. As an innovative child and family psychiatrist in the NHS one also needed to be bold energetic etc, so it is great to be reminded and "allowed" to be those things again - that is, in contrast to the moderation of the original "master" family therapists that has rightly been the direction of the field of family therapy.

      But I can hold onto both the inspiration and encouragement to be bold and directive again, as well as reflect that maybe some couples or some client groups and the therapists they get drawn to and even some cultures might not be ready for or fit a particular model of couple therapy. So I'm enjoying expanding my already broad repertoire of therapeutic theory and practice here. And I know that being eclectic means I'll never be particularly good at any of them!!

      Nick Child, Family Therapist, Edinburgh Scotland.
      Reply
    • 0 avatar chris cable 03.07.2011 08:54
      I read Terry Real's book on male depression years ago, and for the first time, was able to feel REAL empathy for men. In fact, I became the female co-leader of a YWCA Anger Management course that the court would send men to. Now I want to learn more about direct talking with couples. I really enjoyed this session.
      Chris Cable, Annapolis MD
      Reply
    • Not available avatar C. O. 08.04.2011 12:01
      I have done couples counselling for many years, and have always struggled with co-ordinating skills with deeper emotion focussed/family of origin work--both seem important to me. This model appears to combine both and I will certainly be studying it further.
      I have tried to combine truth/love in my work with couples over the years and believe that we are doing couples a disservice if we do not. Great webinar.
      Reply
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