Thank you for your presentation, Dr. Schnarch. I have read Sexual Crucible and respect your work although I would say I primarily utilize a different approach with the couples I work with. I was curious about a point you made in the interview. You mentioned that attachment doesn't deal with the child who has a caregiver that displays hateful and disgusting behavior yet I would imagine that type of parenting would produce an insecurely attached child; perhaps disorganized. Would that not translate to a belief or a realization that sometimes we do intend harm to others rather than it always being about fear which can be a relevant part of an attachment based therapy? Also, I'm wondering if attachment therapy and differentiation therapy may be compatible rather than antithetical? It would seem that "self soothing" would be an important part of attachment work that allows for being self-aware while remaining attached. Christine Bettridge, LPC

Initially I had a difficult time buying into Dr. Schnarch's point of view, as I do believe that most parents do the best they can. As a parent who has made a lot of mistakes, I didn't make those mistakes with the intent of inflicting emotional wounds on my child. The view of human nature that we are by definition all manipulative, self-serving, and cruel, destructive beings is one that I do not agree with. If I believed that, I wouldn't be able to provide therapy to people. For me, I need to believe that people are basically good and want to do good in the world. This being said, as the interview continued I began to see nuggets that I could relate to and value. I think that when you talk about the model in an abstract way it is difficult to relate to, but when specific case examples are discussed one begins to see the value in not accepting a client's reality, but encouraging them to consider a different one. It reminded me a bit of transactional analysis in terms of the game playing and self serving motives that we are perhaps not consciously aware of but which nonetheless we participate in. I admire Schnarch's willingness to confront both his clients and the status quo in therapy circles in search of a deeper understanding and an activation of our internal resources to promote change.

Thank you David and Rick for this very interesting interview. I always look forward to debates that challenge and broaden my work as a couple’s therapist.
I will try to summarize the points in the interview as I understand them. I have a couple of questions in the end.
1) It’s not the attachment theory that’s the problem, but the way attachment theory is practiced in the therapy room.
2) The presence of a certain quality of attachment influence partners to relate to each other (mind mapping) in certain ways.
3) We are always relating and communicating. The question is more how we are relating or communicating(presence) than absence of communication.
4) A more conductive theory is an integrity based one, where differentiation and individual responsibility for how partners conduct themselves are in the foreground. When we can connect as separate people acting in accordance with self and the other, we are trustworthy because we trust ourselves and are doing what we say we are doing and expect the other to do the same.
5) Integrity and accountability – "I can rely on myself and therefore you can rely on me", becomes more important than attachment to and dependence on the other - "I must be able to rely on you before I can rely on myself".
6) When a partner is being hateful and disgusting, it can be seen as a function of a certain quality of early attachment being played out in current relationship. This is not unintentional but deliberate to cause the other pain.
7) As a couples therapist I need to confront the hate and disgust right on without excusing and avoiding responsibility by allowing partners to get away with saying: “I was scared, or I didn’t know what I was doing, or I didn’t intend to hurt you!”
I should be aiming at helping partners finding the best in each of them, and having that part stand up - differentiation.

I would love to see a comparison between yours and Sue Johnsons. I am wondering how you work with the hateful part and how you encourage the best in the partner to stand up.
When a partner is intentionally causing the other pain, how do you explain that to the partners?
Sincerely Irene Savarese, Couples Therapist in Fort Lauderdale, Florida

Thank you for that absolutely invigorating discussion on differientation based vs attachment based psychotherapy. It was so exciting to witness the momentous " in vivo" development of our field on air. The differentiation based view is fascinating in that it seems to take a more resilient view of adults and human relationship development in correlation with science and neurobiology. It is a psychotherapy that addresses, brain change and behaviour.
The differention or crucible approach of Dr. Schanarch recognisies the issues and difficulties in relationship processes, but cuts to the heart or crux of human resilience, to bring about meaningful long-term change through self -growth and self - regulation, not brokeness or weakness, vulnerability and psycotherapy therapy based on abscence and co regulation. Fascinating. What was the title of Thomas Kuhn's book on Science that Dr. Schanrch suggested?

Why are you transmitting session #4 w/David Schnarch again, today, 17 April. Should be session #5, Susan Johnson